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REW Kaaren Hall | Self-Directed IRA

Self-Directed IRA: How To Keep Your Retirement Funds Secure And Invest In Anything You Want With Kaaren Hall

REW Kaaren Hall | Self-Directed IRA

 

Self-directed IRAs have grown in popularity over recent years. They offer more flexibility, including the ability to use your IRA funds to invest in things other than stocks and bonds. However, they are not as common as 401Ks, and there’s yet a lot to understand about them. That’s why in this episode, Kaaren Hall shares her expertise in self-directed IRAs and how women like her can thrive in real estate investment. Kaaren is a Self-Directed IRA Expert and CEO at uDirect IRA Services and OCREIA. Tune in now and learn how to start self-directed IRAs!

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Self-Directed IRA: How To Keep Your Retirement Funds Secure And Invest In Anything You Want With Kaaren Hall

Real Estate Investing For Women

I am excited to welcome back to the show for the third time, Kaaren Hall. For those of you who have not checked out her shows before, let me give you a reminder of her bio. This is what we have. Despite being in the midst of a recession and mortgage market collapse, Kaaren Hall founded and made a resounding success of uDirect IRA Services. She discovered a strategic way to put her twenty-plus years in mortgage banking, real estate, and property management to use.

The solution was an untapped market for both her skills and for investors, which is self-directed IRAs. Through uDirect IRA, she has guided tens of thousands of Americans through the process of diversifying their investments using self-directed IRAs with $1 billion plus under management. Learn more about Kaaren and its thriving company at UDirectIRA.com. Kaaren, you are very distracting.

I’m so sorry. You have to have fun because it’s serious business. We like to keep it light.

How are you?

I’m doing super well. I saw you. That was lovely. All is well.

Kaaren is incredibly generous with her time in her business as well as in her personal life. She has been putting together these boss lady retreats. For some of us ladies that don’t have the time to do stuff, she puts it all together. We show up and have this luxurious time with all these powerful women. We don’t talk business. We are not there to talk shop. We hang out and get to know each other’s hearts. It has been so much fun to hang out with Kaaren and some of the other ladies that were there. She also invited me to this formal event where I got to dress up in a beautiful gown. Who gets to do that? It was so much Fun.

How many gowns do you have? People don’t do gowns but it was so much fun.

There was so much eye can be there with all the men in tuxedos. It was so good. We had a great time. That was not too long ago. It’s so nice to connect with you again.

I’m happy we can be talking because the IRAs have always been a hot thing. There is some stuff on the griddle, if you will, coming up. It’s a good time to talk about it.

Why don’t you start with that? That’s a great lead-in.

When you read my bio, and you talked about an untapped market in 2009, it was an untapped market. Many people had no idea what a self-directed IRA was. These things were created. The IRA, in general, was created in 1975. It has been around for so long. It’s tried and true. In 2009, all of a sudden, it was recession time. There was money. You can’t get a loan from a bank, especially for real estate investing, because it was such a tough time. That’s when I opened uDirect. People discovered the self-directed IRA as they know it. That’s when they discovered it because they could tap into other people’s IRAs to raise money for their deals.

I want to interject one thing here that I’ve done. Every single time you talk about this, I want to put it in here, too. A lot of people say, “I’ve got a self-directed IRA,” because they’ve got it with Fidelity, Vanguard or whatever. “They let me direct as much as I want.” They let you direct on certain vehicles, usually mutual funds. They will let you do some REITs if you are interested in real estate. They will mostly stock.

They are stock market-type vehicles. They won’t let you invest, for instance, in real estate. What Kaaren is talking about is a true self-directed IRA because you can invest in other things that are not stock-based. That’s the big differentiating factor between a true self-directed IRA and a, “I’ve got a self-directed IRA in my 401(k).”

It is self-directed. IRAs are IRAs. An IRA is like a bucket that holds assets. What makes it self-directed is the asset you choose. When you talk to your financial advisor, they are licensed. You know this. You are licensed. If you are licensed to sell market-correlated assets, that’s it. You can advise on that but you can’t advise outside of the stock market. We are all about the alternative asset. What makes it self-directed is that you are choosing the asset. We are not telling you what to invest in. We don’t offer anything for sale. It’s truly self-directed.

REW Kaaren Hall | Self-Directed IRA

Self-Directed IRA: IRA is like a bucket that holds assets. What makes it self-directed is the asset you choose.

 

Back to the recession, it was great to see and witness the grassroots level of capital raise. There was a huge need for capital and projects. There were so many houses that needed to be rehabbed and fixed. One of the solutions was IRAs. IRAs were a grassroots person-to-person way to rebuild our economy. In retirement accounts altogether, there is nearly $40 trillion in retirement. That’s an enormous amount.

Let’s put that money to work, making everything better. My IRA loans your business some money. Your business pays my IRA back the loan. My IRA purchases a house. The renters pay the rent to my IRA. There are private placements and precious metals. There are so many different kinds of assets. That’s when it came to the forefront of most people’s minds.

Self-directing has been around for a long time. As you and I were chatting about off-camera, not a lot has changed in the years since I have been in the industry. A few things have. A couple of Case Laws have passed, drawing lines because the IRS doesn’t always make things clear. With the IRs, it’s always, “It depends.” We’ve received, in many years, a skosh of clarity from them but hardly any. It’s largely unchanged.

We are looking at a couple of possible changes again on that griddle of IRAs. One of them, and this has got bipartisan support called the Secure Act 2.0. The biggest thing that we will see coming out of this Secure Act 2.0 is an increase in the RMDA or Required Minimum Distribution Age. Why do you care? It’s not a big deal. This is why you care. If you were at a level where you needed to take money out of your IRA, that’s fine.

REW Kaaren Hall | Self-Directed IRA

Self-Directed IRA: The biggest thing we’ll see coming out of this Secure Act 2.0 is an increase in the RMD, a required minimum distribution age.

 

If you were at a level where, “I’m doing good. I want to leave my money in my retirement account, so it could continue to grow because I don’t need it now,” it was 70 and a half, and then Secure Act 2.0 passed, and it became 72. It’s going to go to 75. Your money can keep continuing to grow all those years before you are required to take it out. Isn’t that great?

Yeah. This is the key. We get a little bit confused about it but people don’t realize that in IRAs, there is a required age. If you are 70 and still working, you don’t need all that money. You are still required to take out a portion at 72. I have known many people who are like, “I don’t want to take it out yet. I’m not ready. I want it to keep growing.” Yay on them at 72 that they are like, “I’m still going strong,” but the government didn’t give them any option. It sounds like there’s a possibility of a new option, which I love. That means you can take it out younger than 70. Is it 59? What is the lowest?

59 and a half is when you can take it out without penalty.

That’s a good start if you want to.

The required minimum distribution is you have to. That brings up another good point about the Secure Act 2.0. If you forget your RMD and don’t take it, the penalty is 50% of what that RMD would have been. It’s so big. It’s bad. What the 2.0 is looking to do, and it’s in writing. We will see how it comes out. Secure Act 2.0 would lessen that penalty to probably 25%. That’s what they are talking about. I know RMDs are probably far off for a lot of people but this is important, maybe for your parents or your other family members that have to take this money out. It’s good to know that things are going to become more lenient in that regard. I’m happy about that.

When you are deciding where to put your savings money or you are investing money away, those are things that you are going to consider. If I want full liquidity and full control, I may not want to put it in an IRA of any sort. IRAs have limits on how much you can put in and all of that stuff too. As you are making your financial plan for your future, some of it you are planning for retirement, for cashflow, for now, for vacations, and for life happening. Which portion do you continue to put into your IRA, and how do you decide to utilize that? How much are you going to prioritize? The more flexibility we have on that, the more likely we are to prioritize that as a possibility. Wouldn’t you agree?

Completely. What you said brought up a point. You are using that money. When you are investing using an IRA, why do you do it? Why would you use an IRA? It’s because of its tax-protected status. If it’s like a SEP, a traditional IRA or a 401(k), chances are it is tax-deferred. You are not paying tax until you take the money out. If it’s a Roth, it’s tax-free, assuming you need two qualifying conditions like being 59 and a half and having a Roth for five years.

It’s the tax treatment. That’s the reason you use an IRA to invest. You are not going to pay the tax in a typical IRA, the traditional or SEP IRA, for example, until you take the money out. You can make a huge killing. Maybe you bought a building, and 1 year or 10 years later, you sell it. Maybe you made $100,000. We don’t need $100,000. You need $10,000. You want to take up $10,000, so you don’t have to pay tax on that whole cashflow experience. It’s the amount that you need. You pay the tax as you direct per diem.

When you are putting your financial plan together, it gives you more control. For me, I’m all about choice. I want control over my money. That’s what it’s all about for me. Choice in my money gives me a choice in life.

Plus, when you contribute, unless you make too much and hit a certain amount, you can also perhaps take a tax deduction for your contribution. This 2022 or coming up in 2023, the contribution limits went up because we see inflation. We saw the biggest increase. If you have a solo 401(k) in 2022, the cap is either 25% of your income or $61,000, the lesser of. In 2022, the contribution limit was a lesser of 25% of your income or $61,000. You can make that 2022 contribution all the way until your tax filing deadline. There’s an end to that but you can do that and make a prior year contribution.

For 2023, here’s where the contribution limits had a very surprising increase. It went up $5,000, which is very unusual in this arena. It’s 25% of your income or $66,000, the lesser of. If you have a solo 401(k), that is a huge advantage to you to be able to contribute $5,000 more and, hopefully, most likely get a tax break on that.

I know a lot of people reading do not remember what a solo 401(k) is. Could you define that really quickly?

Sure. We know what a 401(k) is at work. It’s a savings plan. Unlike an IRA, this is a 401(k). It’s a different animal. It’s the same purpose but a different animal. An IRA is one thing like a SEP, which is a Simplified Employee Pension. An IRA is one thing but the solo 401(k) is two things. It’s an employer portion and an employee portion. It’s two buckets.

If you are self-employed with no full-time employees in any of the companies that you own, then you can have a solo 401(k). You qualify for it, and you can contribute more. It has two buckets. Those are the employer and the employee bucket or we call it the plan and the participant. In the participant portion, which is the smaller portion, that can be all Roth. That’s one of the great things about the solo 401(k).

Another great thing about a solo 401(k), if you qualify for it, is that you can take out a plan loan. You can borrow from your solo 401(k) for your personal use. That is maybe to buy a personal home, take a vacation, pay for college or whatever. You must pay your 401(k) back over a five-year period, either monthly or quarterly, at a market rate. It’s like a little investment. The loan turns out to be an investment for your plan. You can have that for personal use. It’s huge. You can’t do that in an IRA.

There are other benefits. If you have an IRA and want to invest in real estate, that’s great. Many people do. If you have a solo 401(k) and invest in real estate, that’s also great. If one of these accounts wants to take a loan, it’s a solo 401(k) that is not subject to the UDFI tax for an acquisition loan. We all love the power of leverage. In our personal lives, leverage is yay. In an IRA or 401(k), typically, the proceeds that the account earns because of leverage are subject to this UDFI tax. If it’s for acquisition, then this solo 401(k) has an exemption. That’s another great thing about the solo 401(k).

Tell me about that tax.

We will break off solo 401(k) for a second because it’s a great account if you are self-employed and have no full-time employees. It’s the bomb. There are two times an IRA can be taxed. We use IRAs, 401(k)s, and all these plans to save on tax. It’s not income tax. It’s UDFI and UBIT tax. That is what it is. If you want to jot something down for our readers, it’s IRS.Gov Publication 598. You can go deep there on Pub 598.

We will use simple numbers. Your IRA purchases a house, and it’s $100,000. That’s great. In your IRA, you only had $70,000 to put in, so you borrowed $30,000. Thirty percent of that acquisition cost is leveraged. Your renters pay the $1,000 rent on that $100,000 house. 30% of that $1,000 was earned because of leverage. That 30% that was earned due to leverage is subject to the UDFI tax or Unrelated Debt Financed Income Tax.

We are talking about your IRA owning a house and a renter. Here’s another situation where the UDFI tax comes into play and catches people by surprise. That’s private equity. If your IRA loans money to a private equity capital razor, that’s different. If your IRA has an equity position and ownership position in private equity and that asset sponsor is taking leverage in the deal, then part of the money your IRA earns is because of the leverage the asset sponsor took. You are going to owe UDFI, and you might not know it. That’s one of the things when you do your due diligence on a private placement. Always read it. Always have your attorney review it. Take a look and see whether this asset sponsor is taking on cap or taking on leverage.

REW Kaaren Hall | Self-Directed IRA

Self-Directed IRA: When you do your due diligence on a private placement, always read it and have your attorney review it.

 

It’s not the end of the world when you file a 990-T, which is the tax form. You get to take a deduction, so maybe there will be no tax at all. You still have to file. Maybe it’s a wash, and it’s not a big deal but you want to know. That’s because if you need to file the 990-T and you don’t, the IRS will come knocking eventually and say, “Why didn’t you file a 990-T?” They are going to know because the asset sponsor is going to issue a K-1 to you. They share that K-1 with the IRS, and the IRS knows, “Red light here. This is what we should expect. We should expect a 990-T because there was income earned because of leverage.” A lot of people don’t know that.

That was an awful lot of good information. It blew up my brain. Can I ask some questions?

Please do.

We have a lot of boss ladies that do syndication. Let’s say, for instance, we invest with one of our ladies. For many of them, their minimum is $50,000. My audience, you know what we are talking about. Let’s say you put $50,000 in a syndication deal, and it’s got a five-year span. Your preferred rate is 7%. Your IRR is supposed to be whatever it is. We get our K-1 every year. Let’s get specific. How does that work? I know you explained it to me but let’s break it down a little bit more, so I can understand what you said. Is that okay? I know you are not a tax consultant. I’m clear about that. What you said was interesting, and I’m afraid I missed something because I’m in that situation.

Some of our friends, I invested with them too but I’ve invested as a note investor like a lender. I don’t have to worry about these taxes because my IRA doesn’t have an equity position. My IRA is the lender. It’s different.

You are not a preferred partner. You are just carrying a note.

That’s correct. I like to think I’m preferred.

There’s something. Your preferred rate is 7%, 9% or 10%, and then they are going to refinance and give you back your capital and then some. You get part of the rent every month, and then eventually, they are going to sell, and you are going to get some of that equity. You then have a gain because you’ve taken depreciation. There’s all this good stuff.

That’s the beauty of making money right there.

That was pretty cool. When you say that you are just carrying a note, is that not the same as what I said?

It is similar but I don’t have an equity state. I’m a lender, not an equity owner.

That’s also interesting. As an equity owner, for instance, like what I’ve got going on, how does that translate? Do you know?

If your IRA is an equity owner and your IRA earns money because of leverage, then it kicks in this UDFI tax. It’s a tax on unrelated income tax. It is related to investing. I don’t quite get that definition because you are investing but that’s what it’s called. It’s the IRS. Go figure. The thing about it is that if your IRA earns capital due to leverage. It’s not money that you contributed. It’s not money you saved. You are not earning a certain percentage of that return because of your savings. You earn that return because of the leverage that the asset sponsor took out. It’s subject to tax. You would talk to your tax advisor, show them the K-1, and have them file a 990-T.

REW Kaaren Hall | Self-Directed IRA

Self-Directed IRA: If your IRA earns capital due to leverage, you’re not earning a certain percentage of that return because of your savings. You earned that return because of the leverage that the asset sponsor took out.

 

That’s only if it’s invested with an IRA.

With a retirement account. That’s correct. I’m all in the bubble of retirement accounts. That’s all I speak on. It is inside the bubble.

That’s interesting. I didn’t know all that. That’s cool.

It’s a good thing to look for because so many people are caught unaware.

What were some of the other things you were headed towards?

It’s hard to remember but we talked about the Secure Act, what’s happening with RMDs, and the possible changes. When you and I were at this event, we heard economists speaking about what’s on the horizon. Nobody has a crystal ball but it certainly could lead to perhaps lower-priced real estate again. We might see that again. If we do, that might be a good time to acquire real estate again. Buy low, sell high, I don’t think that’s giving investment advice. Everybody knows that. We may have an uptake in people investing in brick and mortar and sticks and bricks real estate again, having tenants, and going through that. Why don’t I talk a little bit about what it’s like to own real estate in an IRA?

Please, that’s what I was going to ask. Tell us how that works.

Do you know how we buy a stock where we go online? That’s what I do anyway. I click and I’m like, “I want this many shares,” and it’s there. There’s no problem. The first is buying a house. Let’s say that’s what we are doing here. You got to go through escrow. You got to do all that title. You can’t get away from that part. Your IRA comes in with the money.

If you need leverage, we talked about the non-recourse loan that your IRA would take to borrow money. We are there. We are at the closing table. The offer has been made in the name of the IRA, either you have leverage or you don’t. Maybe you’ve got two partners buying it together concurrently and are ready to close. That’s great. You then close on real estate.

I want to clarify. Let’s say, for instance, we are talking $50,000 again. You are buying a $200,000 piece of property. You put in the $50,000 from your account but that controls much more. Your 25% controls four times as much in the asset. That’s the way real estate leverage works. There’s a special kind of loan that can be given to an IRA that’s not given to the rest of us. That’s what she was referring to when she said non-recourse loan. Those are the loans that you can get if you’ve only got a certain amount of the value of the property to invest.

It threw me off but that’s true. You’ve got this property, and you are buying it. We could go off on so many rabbit holes but I’m going to stick with it. Your IRA, let’s say, owns 100%. You didn’t use leverage. It bought the building straight out with your savings, whatever building it is. What do you do with it? There are things called prohibited transactions. One of the things is that you cannot offer what’s called “over-contribution of sweat equity.” You don’t want to offer an over-contribution of sweat equity because it’s prohibited.

You’ve got this property in your IRA but what you can’t do is hammer the nails. You can’t do the work yourself because it’s called an over-contribution of sweat equity. It’s a prohibited transaction, which is something you want to avoid. That’s why we always talk to people. We give a free consultation so we can talk to you and say, “Tell us about your deal. We will help you learn how to avoid prohibited transactions, so you are not going to do that.” What you can do is you can still hire third-party vendors. You can select the property, close on it, and do all that without it being sweat equity. You can vet the renters in the property and hire third parties to do the work without it being considered sweat equity.

You are allowed to property-manage. What you cannot do is take any fee from your IRA for anything, including property management for an IRA on property. That’s great because your IRA is there. You’ve got tenants. You’ve done your homework. You’ve got a cashflow going. You can use that cashflow to build your retirement. All expenses must be paid for by the IRA, and all proceeds must go back to the IRA that owns that asset. That’s how that works.

For instance, let’s say you put in all the money from your IRA, and suddenly, you’ve got some maintenance things. A fridge goes out. The sprinkler system breaks. Something happens. All the money from the rent has been going into that IRA, so you’ve got this extra money that you can utilize for these other things that you have to do. It comes up with real estate.

That’s why we ask our account holders to leave a 10% pad in their account because you don’t know what you are going to need. There are the closing costs, the rehab, the property tax or that new refrigerator that you need for your rental. It has to be a rental property. You can’t have any personal use of it. All those expenses have to be paid for by the IRA. You need to leave a pad. Let’s talk about what happens if you don’t have enough money.

Let’s talk about that because that’s what everybody is thinking.

There are a few things you can do. You can write a check and contribute to your account. That’s probably everyone’s first go-to. Your contribution depends upon your age, your income, and your account type. You can then write a check and contribute. Maybe you already made your contribution, so what can you do then? Maybe you’ve got another IRA someplace. You will liquidate that to cash, send the cash over to the self-directed IRA, and make it up.

You could take on a debt partner. That’s somebody to give you a non-recourse loan to your IRA account so that you could then come up with the money to do what you needed to do if you had to. If all else fails, you would need to sell the asset. If you didn’t have enough to cover the expenses, you would need to sell the asset because you can’t pay for those things personally.

When someone gives you a non-recourse loan to make up the difference, are there certain percentage restrictions? Does it have to be another IRA that’s making that loan? Tell me a little bit about what that other loan might do because that’s interesting. I’ve never heard that before. How can you utilize that?

If anybody would like a copy of my list of non-recourse lenders, and it’s not the people I necessarily endorse because it’s as a courtesy but if you want that list, I would be very happy to send it to you. You can reach me at [email protected]. That is my email address. You could also go to UDirectIRA.com. There you go. I will send you the list. It could be an individual. It could be a bank. I don’t know if a bank would make a loan if you are in a hard place but it doesn’t have to be IRA money. It could be somebody else’s personal money.

What it can’t be is a disallowed person. It’s not going to be a lineal ascendant or descendant. That is parents, grandparents, you and your spouse, children, and grandchildren. They are not going to be making this loan. It’s also not going to be a 50/50 business partner. They are disallowed or any fiduciary like your real estate agent or your CPA. That’s somebody who has a fiduciary duty to your calendar and this asset. They would be barred from doing that. You could have a third party make a non-recourse loan to your IRA.

That’s interesting because that gets us out of trouble in a situation like that.

It might be the final straw. That would be my last go-to but it’s available. We are in real estate. We bought the property. It’s the whole lifespan. Let’s talk about the timing of the lifespan of something like this because that’s something people always wonder, “How long will it take?” We know how long real estate takes. Let’s put it there. Real estate is an imperfect world. It’s always, “I’m sorry, but.” It can also have a glorious outcome. In some way, there is going to be a train wreck at some point along the way because it’s a house.

Real estate is an imperfect world. It can have a glorious outcome, but it can also be a train wreck at some point along the way. Click To Tweet

It happens. I don’t like to call it a train wreck. There are challenges and tears.

Challenges and opportunities, that’s what it’s. It’s to say that you are going to have a pitfall, so you want to know what to expect. First, you open an account. That’s the first thing. How long does it take? It may be a day. You fill out a form, give us a setup fee and your ID, and there you go. You’ve got an account. It takes one day max.

The second step is putting money in that account or funding it so you can make a contribution. You can do a rollover from a previous employer plan like you are moving the money from that previous employer’s 401(k), 457(b) or 403(b). That takes about two weeks if it’s a previous employer plan. You transfer an IRA-to-IRA transfer, which usually is much faster than a rollover. It usually takes a week tops.

When it’s open and funded, then you invest. You select the asset that you want to invest in. It could be precious metals, private equity or a loan. There are many different things. You give us what we call the supporting documentation, which is a general way of saying the contract. There’s some agreement, even if it’s an invoice to pay a vendor or it’s the actual note and deed of trust for a secured loan.

Whatever the documentation is for that asset, give that to us along with a simple, quick form like who you are, what you want to do, how much, and all that. We then review it. It goes through a review process. We say 3 to 5 business days to make that happen but oftentimes, it happens a lot faster. The majority of the time, it happens a lot faster. Sometimes more but mostly a lot faster than that.

You open the account. It might take two weeks to fund it. While we are waiting for that money to come in, we are reviewing your documents and getting everything all queued up so that you are ready to pull the trigger when the money comes in. We will send a check or a wire, and you’ve self-direct. That’s how that works.

That’s true for real estate, too. I’ve heard that to buy real estate. You have to open up an LLC in the name of the IRA.

That’s an excellent topic. I’ve got a lot to say about that. That’s called the IRA-owned LLC. You probably heard it called the checkbook IRA. It’s not what it is. People get the misconception that when they open a self-directed account that a checking account comes with it. That is a misconception. That is not how it works. You have a retirement account that’s self-directed. You open it, fund it, then you have a third party create a special-purpose LLC. You are not going to do this yourself.

People get the misconception that when they open a self-directed account, a checking account comes with it. Click To Tweet

People will say, “I have a 401(k). We will put it in there.” You can’t use the LLC that you created yourself because you own it. Your IRA cannot purchase an asset you own. It has to be a third party that creates this special purpose LLC. The IRA is open and has money in it. The IRA buys 100% of the initial units of that special purpose LLC. The money goes from the IRA into the LLC’s checking account. Your IRA is like the umbrella, and your LLC sits under the umbrella. The IRA owns the LLC. That’s how you can have checkbook control of your IRA funds. It can be handy in some situations, especially when you are investing in tax liens that are transaction-intensive.

When you are buying properties at an auction where you have to have the money, there are some useful purposes. You don’t have to have an LLC to purchase real estate. You will hear some attorneys say, “It gives you great asset protection. It does this and that.” That all may be true. I’m not a lawyer and can’t give legal advice but people will do it for that reason too and to separate out their assets. There are a lot of reasons to do that.

I live in the State of California. Every single LLC gets taxed $800 every single year. That continues. It’s not like it’s exempt from that because it’s owned by an IRA.

It’s for the privileged. Nobody else has that high tax as an annual fee. That’s another good point. If you think, “I don’t like this $800 in California. I’m going to open a Delaware LLC for my IRA,” you still have to register it in California. You would still pay in Delaware and California.

I found that out the hard way.

Sometimes, it’s worth it to people that do that. A lot of people do that to protect their assets. That’s a great conversation to have with your asset protection attorney.

One of the questions or comments that I get from my ladies is, “I don’t understand it.” When people are confused, they don’t move. They get stuck. Some of this stuff helps us to mitigate that feeling of not knowing. What would you say to people that are hesitating? For instance, my husband is like, “I’m going to keep it all in the 401(k). I understand it. I’m good.” He’s got some rollover money. We were talking about self-directing it. He’s like, “I want to do it this way.” There are a lot of people out there that are like that. They don’t understand it. They are afraid to move everything over or roll it all over. What would you say to those people?

I would say that you probably want to have a return on your investment. You want your money to grow. You take a look and say, “How can I make my money grow?” Let’s say you decide you are going to invest in it. You were like, “Maybe I will throw it out to a private equity like a Reg D offering.” Whether you do it personally or in an IRA, you can still make the same return. If you do it in an IRA, then that return is either tax-free or tax-deferred. That’s one reason to use a self-directed IRA.

Let’s assume you’ve got those two buckets of money, which are personal money and retirement money. If you only have retirement money, you have a different question to ask yourself, “I want to invest in these assets that I know best.” In this case, we are using an example of private equity. You are like, “I know private equity better than the stock market. Do I want to invest in market-correlated assets, or do I want to invest in alternative assets?” We are assuming that those are the assets that you understand and have your head wrapped around.

That’s a different question. Is it the stock market or alternative assets? Are you going to invest personally, with your IRA or with your retirement account? These are questions you need to ask yourself. Where are you going to get the best bang for the buck tax-wise? Sometimes, in real estate, you get the most bang for the buck buying it personally because there are so many write-offs to buying real estate personally. That could be the case but you don’t know if you don’t pencil it out. Meet with your CPA and get some financial advice.

There are some people that would say this, “I don’t want to put my retirement stuff in anything that would be a high risk that I could lose money because that’s my retirement money. I don’t want to risk it with that.” I would love to hear your feedback on this. If you think that there’s a high probability of losing money, it’s probably not a good thing to put in your IRA. It may also not be a good thing to be investing in personally unless it’s your play money or only a certain percentage.

If you are having that conversation with yourself, you might reconsider. I’m super conservative, so if I’m having that conversation with myself, I’m not going to invest it in anything. If I feel like I can invest in it, then it’s something I could do in my IRA. The stock market is not a guarantee, either. People lose money in the stock market every day of the week, unfortunately. It’s not because it’s in the stock market that it’s something that people understand or it’s something where you have quick liquidity. Making decisions with the push of a button doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s protecting your money.

You have to make wise choices about investing, to begin with, and then it’s what vehicle you are going to use, what your tax situation is, and whether your tax benefits are going one way or the other. You want to pencil it out with pros and cons. You can simplify your decision-making process that way.

You have to make wise choices about investing, to begin with. Pencil out the pros and cons; you can simplify your decision-making process that way. Click To Tweet

Kareen, that was so amazing. Thank you much for all that you’ve offered so far in the show. That was awesome.

Thank you. It’s a privilege to be able to share this information so that people can grow their retirement. That’s what we want.

You are so amazing. We all love you. How can people reach you?

The best way is UDirectIra.com, our website. You can click and schedule a consultation. You can read our free report that’s out there to learn about some different asset classes. There is a lot of information there. You can also email us at [email protected]. We will give you a free consultation. We will say, “Tell us about your deal. What are you looking to do?” We will discuss that with you, and then you can make your decisions if that’s the right thing for you.

You also offered earlier that if you go to [email protected], you will give us a list of non-recourse lenders. You could ask for that, too. Thank you for that. I’m excited. We are going to talk at EXTRA about how to do your due diligence on investments that you want to do in your self-directed IRA. Stay tuned for that in EXTRA.

If you are already subscribed, you are going to get it right after this. If you are not and would like to be, go to RealEstateInvestingForWomenExtra.com, and then you can get all that information on doing your due diligence. It’s a little bit different from the way that Kaaren talks about it because she’s talking about it as far as putting it in a self-directed IRA. I’m excited about that conversation.

For those of you that are leaving us, thank you so much for spending this time with Kaaren and me. You know how much I appreciate you. I look forward to seeing you next time. Until then, remember, goals without action are just dreams. Get out there, take action, and create the life your heart deeply desires. I will talk to you soon. Bye.

 

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Grow Wealthy While Paying Taxes With Mark Willis

 

Would you rather pay taxes now while you are still earning or simply want to postpone it during your later years? If Mark Willis is to be asked, he believes that it is better to pay taxes as early as possible, giving you a chance to enjoy a tax-deferred retirement. The owner of Lake Growth Financial Services sits down with Moneeka Sawyer to discuss the benefits of addressing your tax problems before it builds up and becoming a huge life obstacle. Mark also presents the Overton Window concept, emphasizing the alternative ways to pay taxes that have nothing to do with 401(k)s or IRAs.

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Listen to the podcast here

 

Grow Wealthy While Paying Taxes With Mark Willis

Real Estate Investing for Women

I am excited to welcome back to the show, Mark Willis. He has been on the show several times. He’s been on our summit. He was in my book. He’s been with me a while and I’m excited to bring him back to talk about taxes. For those of you who don’t remember who Mark is, let me go ahead and reintroduce him. Mark Willis is a man on a mission to help you think differently about banks, Wall Street and financial uncertainty. After graduating with six figures of student loan debt and discovering a way to turn his debt into real wealth, as he watched everybody else lose their retirement investments and home equity in 2008, he knew that he needed to find a sane way to meet his financial objectives and those of his clients. Mark is a certified financial planner and number one bestselling author and the owner of Lake Growth Financial Services, a financial firm in Chicago, Illinois. Mike, welcome back to the show. How are you?

I am glad to be with you. I am doing great. I can’t wait to get into everything we have to cover together.

When you started talking about building wealth while paying taxes, I was all in. Let’s start by talking about tax-deferred retirement plans because that’s what people normally think is a good way to save on taxes.

REW 41 | Tax-Deferred Retirement

Tax-Deferred Retirement: Letting the tax problem build-up is oftentimes not a good idea.

 

I want to start with a story. Imagine you’re a farmer out in the middle of Nowheresville, Iowa or even more beautiful, California. I have nothing against Iowa, but California is awesome. Let’s say you’re a farmer and you’re up early in the morning, as you always are. You’re getting ready for your day. You’re pouring yourself a cup of coffee, there’s a knock at the door and you open the door. It’s an IRS agent of all people. You’re puzzled, but you welcome them in. You sit them down at your dinner table, you hand them a cup of coffee and you say, “What are you doing here?” The IRS agent looks you right in the eye and says, “Moneeka, we’re going to ask you one question and we’re going to treat you according to your answer in your taxes for the rest of your professional life.”

You say, “Okay.” They say, “Here’s the question, Ms. Moneeka, do you want to be taxed on the farming seed or your harvest?” You don’t even have to hesitate. You replied by saying, “Tax me on my seed. I want a tax-free harvest.” You know the power of compounding and multiplication. You’d rather be taxed on the seed. They make a few notes. He gets up to leave and he turns around as he’s walking out the door and he says, “I’m curious, you said the seed. Why are you doing it totally backward when it comes to your retirement plans?” That’s the story. The truth is most Americans are putting money into a tax-deferred system that goes against the grain. It goes against our intuition about taxes. I’ll hush right there, but I’m curious, does that story strike anything for you as we talk about it?

Absolutely. I’ve never heard that story before, but it is true and relevant. In our retirement programs, the money is a seed. Do you want to be taxed on the seeds that go in initially or on the harvest that is worth so much more later? I’ve never heard it that way and I love it.

If you think about it, the word tax-deferred would be everything from your 401(k)s, IRAs, 457 plans and 403(b) plans. At a lot of hospitals and nonprofits, they offer 403(b). They’re all tax-deferred retirement plans, which is a postponing of what’s due. What does the word postponed mean? What does the word defer mean? It means putting off until later. Taxes are about as fun as going to the dentist, in my opinion. If you want to defer a root canal, is that a good idea? It’s not a good idea to defer a root canal and similarly, letting the tax problem build-up is oftentimes not a good idea.

I don’t know everyone’s tax situation, but over the thousands of phone calls and Zoom calls I’ve had with clients over the past decade, having quick calls and long in-depth calls, evaluating people’s tax scenarios, we have pretty sophisticated tax software that we run for our clients, but we have brief calls with people too. We asked them the question, “What do you think as you look at the nation, as you look at your personal financial situation, is our tax going to be lower or higher in the future?” Moneeka, I can’t think of a single person who’s ever said other than, “Mark, I think taxes are going to go higher in this country over my lifetime.” I tend to agree with that. It’s not a matter of political left or political right. The math party says the taxes have to go up. It’s important to ask ourselves if taxes are going to be higher and we’ve put off the tax payment. Do you want to pay those extra taxes on the money or would you rather have a tax-free harvest? That’s the looming question every person has to ask, at least if you’re a tax-paying us citizen.

There’s also something else to consider that is relevant. We’ve been trained to think that we make a ton of money. We put a bunch of way. We have our kids. We have all these expenses that happen during our life, but then when we retire, we’re going to be living on our retirement income, which is going to be significantly less than what we’re making when we’re earning money. When we start pulling that money out, we’re going to be in a lower tax bracket. Whether the taxes go up or down, regardless, we’re going to be in a lower tax bracket. I want to ask you ladies, when you retire, after however many years you put in of hard work and bringing up your family, not getting to travel and making sacrifices.

Most Americans are putting money into a tax-deferred system that goes against the grain. Click To Tweet

Hopefully, you haven’t done too much of that. Hopefully, you’ve been blissful, but whatever you’ve done, do you want to be living on less than what you’re making now? I say, “No.” My retirement is not going to happen until I can live my current lifestyle or better. I want to travel more. I want to be more with my parents. I want to afford a nicer house, even if it’s a little condo penthouse. Whatever it is, I want more than this lifestyle, not less. I’m not going to work all these years for less. If you think about that, you’re deferring all of this income. You’re going to be paying taxes at the current tax bracket or higher and on more as opposed to on less.

It’s so true, Moneeka. Even if taxes are only 1% higher than they are now, on a mathematical basis, it makes more sense to pay our taxes today. I’m not telling everyone to do that, but you’re so right. Anecdotally, I can’t think of any retirees that were even moderately successful in their investments, their savings or their real estate investing who are in a lower bracket. It’s an old-fashioned myth. We’ve been living in low brackets.

It’s a marketing strategy. In the earlier days, when a lot of this stuff was developed, people were getting pensions. They were able to live on Social Security because the cost of living hadn’t increased so much. There were some fixed income things that they could count on. The average man could count on being able to retire without having to invest and without having to be financially savvy. If that in fact is true, they aren’t going to be in a lower bracket. When you start talking about a tax-deferred retirement plan, you are in a lower bracket. That’s how this whole thing started. Now in the modern day where most of us don’t have pensions. We don’t believe we’re going to be able to live off of Social Security. We are investing. We are hoping to create a lifestyle for ourselves, a retirement that we deserve and have worked for. That’s a big difference. It started as marketing. It’s just not relevant anymore.

With regard to traditional retirement plans, I have nothing against them, I just think we’re using them for the wrong thing. When I was a little kid, my parents would get on me if I was using my toys in a way that it wasn’t designed. If I was throwing my Game Boy in the bathtub, that’s not going to end well. The same is true with our financial toys or vehicles or whatever you want to call them. Everything has a place. Nothing is wrong or bad. It’s a question of what do you truly want your money to do for you. If you want your money taxed in the future, that’s great. Let’s think about it this way. Let’s say that you had somehow $1 million in your 401(k) on the day you plan to retire. You’re a 401(k) millionaire, but some or a significant portion of that money is not yours. You have a partner with you in your 401(k). It’s an equity partner you might say in your 401(k). If you tried to take $1 million out of your 401(k) after you retired, it would look suspiciously like $600,000. The $400,000 would go to the IRS.

Here’s something to keep in mind. How much of that million dollars was due as a fee to the advisor and the wrap account charges and the investment load costs baked into your 401(k). Even if you had a 1% fee, that could be as much as a third of your life savings, gone to fees over your 401(k)s lifetime according to the Department of Labor. Did the government help you with that fee? Did the IRS help support that fee since they were a partner with you in the 401(k)? Did you have to come up with the full fee by yourself? Now, the government is taking all of their money out fee-free.

By the way, while we’re talking about it, who bears the risk of that 401(k)? Did the IRS bear the risk? Did us, as citizens bear that risk of the market going down or whatever else? It’s a fool’s errand to try to beat the system when we’re using a product that was designed by the government. I’m not anti or pro any political party, but it’s important to realize that when the government creates a problem called high taxation and then creates a solution to that problem like tax-deferred retirement plans, you got to ask yourself, are you being manipulated here? That’s important to ask, especially when it comes to creating a financial life that brings bliss and brings happiness.

REW 41 | Tax-Deferred Retirement

Tax-Deferred Retirement: Even if taxes are only 1% higher than they are now, on a mathematical basis, it makes more sense to pay taxes as soon as possible.

 

That is true. It is such a good tax conversation, but I’m eager to find out what we can do. Talk to me about what you got for us.

There’s something I want to chat about quickly, which is something called Overton Window. It is a cool strategy or framework for talking about things that are acceptable and unthinkable. Have you ever done Mad Libs?

Yes.

It's a question of what do you truly want your money to do for you. Click To Tweet

Don’t you love these? I love cracking up with my buddies. I don’t care if you’re 34 or 11 years old, you love a good Mad Lib. I think what makes Mad Lib’s work is we are outside of Overton Window. This is what Overton Window is. A long time ago, you could say something on the street and it would be acceptable. If you said the same thing on the street in 2020 or 2021, it would be absurd to say something that may have been so acceptable years ago. Taxes similarly have gone through a major shift in our understanding of what they’re for and what they’re there to do for us.

There’s a number of places we can put our money that still may be outside of the acceptable, what’s common, and what’s regularly thought of as their retirement savings vehicle. You teach all the time. Moneeka, about alternative ways to prepare for fiscal sanity and financial bliss that has nothing to do with 401(k)s or IRAs. They’re even older than the 401(k). The 401(k) and IRA are not even old enough to retire you yet. The first 401(k) was issued in 1981, but some of your strategies in real estate, which provide incredible tax benefits on the seed and the harvest have been around since the pyramids. Investing in real estate is as old as time itself in human civilization.

We have some cool topics and details that we will be diving deeper into, but I want to remind your awesome audience, that it’s not a shoo-in. It’s not a locked-in strategy where we must follow the guidance of the person who gave us that 401(k). You probably want to take that company match most of the time, but for all of my real cash accumulation and investing, I’m looking outside amateur retail, investment products like 401(k)s. I’m looking at things that have been more time-tested and that aren’t going to sting me when I go to get my cash out in retirement or even before retirement.

I love how you talk about that there are all these different vehicles. There are some for more the amateur investment vehicle, and then there are some more expert type vehicles. You don’t need to know a lot to become an expert, you just have to start looking at that and studying it. I agree that if you have a 401(k) that matches, you take that. We completely max out our 401(k) with my husband’s company every single year. I’m not anti 401(k) either, but it’s a piece of the puzzle. Many people depend on it as being the puzzle. We don’t want it to be the puzzle. We want it to be a piece. Real estate could be another piece. Self-directed Roth could be another piece, and your programs could be another piece. There’s a lot of different ways that we can create and that’s what you want. You want a basket of diversified ways for you to create that wealth before you retire.

In fact, you have six streams of tax-free income to diversify against any taxable income. Here are a few fun ones. You mentioned Roth accounts. That’s a great one. That’s a smart one, especially as long as the Roth exists in the tax code. It’s only been since 1997 when we’ve had Roth accounts. As long as they last, let’s take them. Another one would be some real estate that we can continue to depreciate. If your accountant hasn’t already brought up things like bonus depreciation and cost segregation, bring it up to them and be concerned that they didn’t bring it up to you first. The next thing I’d say is to look at life insurance as a stream of income in retirement. Those life insurance cash values, not term insurance, can be a safe alternative to investing that provides a tax-free income in retirement.

Some people call it the rich person’s Roth because there are fewer restrictions than a Roth account in the way of, “How much you want to contribute to it.” That sort of thing. We’re talking about things that are outside the norm of Overton Window. If you think outside the norm, let’s think about some others. If you can take only your home equity and reverse it, you can be paid by the bank tax-free to live in your house for as long as you live. This is different than the late-night reverse mortgage infomercials. I don’t always recommend these home equity conversion mortgages, but that’s something PhDs and economists like Wade Pfau have been purporting and recommending people to look into as a fourth or even fifth stream of tax-free money.

If you can splice up and diversify your tax-free streams of income, all of a sudden, the remaining 401(k) money you have, it’s good to have some tax-deferred 401(k) or IRA money, as long as we have something called the standard deduction. If your audience knows, the 2020 tax code says the standard deduction for someone married filed jointly is $24,800. As long as your taxable income is below $24,800 out of that 401(k), you can deduct it all. You could be living on six figures of income from all those streams I listed for you and still report zero taxes on your tax return every year throughout your retirement. That to me is freedom because if tax rates do go up if they go twice as high, zero times, anything is still zero. It’s a phenomenal way to live free in retirement.

Thank you for that. What intrigued me so much is talking about your system for paying taxes because all of us have to be taxes unless you’re doing what you talked about, but we all have to pay taxes. Let’s talk about this crazy idea that you have about building wealth while you’re paying taxes. I know you’re only going to be able to give us a high-level. Ladies, I want to let you know that we are setting up a webinar with Mark because I’m so intrigued by this concept and it’s relevant now. Taxes are right around the corner. I want him to give you a high-level now. We’ll give you information on webinars so he can dive deeper. We’ll have a whole hour together and he can give you a lot more information there. Go ahead and introduce us to the idea.

We’ve been talking a lot about ways to lower our taxes both now and over the lifetime, but what about what we’re still having to pay at the end of each year? If you’re a business owner or if you have a small business, oftentimes you have a big check you have to write. Let’s imagine that you could somehow write that check to yourself first and earn some growth before you pay it to Uncle Sam. We’re still paying our taxes, but what if you could build a lot of wealth of the tax bill that you have to send to the IRS? I had to send a six-figure tax bill to the IRS in 2019 and it was painful. What if you could put that money into something that you could earn interest and grow wealth on while you’re still paying your taxes? That’s the quick byline for our webinars.

We spend more on taxes than we will on our spouses. Click To Tweet

Check out that webinar. Even if you don’t pay a whole lot or think you don’t pay a lot in taxes, I’ll give a quick story. We had a lady who came in. She was 35 years old. She was paying and we totaled it up. Her wage deductions and more were about $6,000 a year in taxes. She was making about $50,000 a year. We estimated over the next 35 years, $6,000 times 35 years of work was $210,000 for her taxes. That’s $210,000. That’s a lot of money to keep Uncle Sam happy. If she had put that $6,000 a year into a 5% interest-earning account, her money would have been an extra $500,000 at retirement that she won’t have and Uncle Sam will.

It’s important to think about how can we build wealth oftentimes, at the biggest expense of our life. I hate to even say that because we’ll spend more on our taxes than we will on our spouses. We’ll spend more on our taxes than our own children. We’ll spend more on taxes than probably any other major expense that I can imagine. The truth is taxes are a big part of each of our lives. If you could find a way to build wealth off that major payment every year, you’d be set for life without taking a bunch of unnecessary risks. That’s short and sweet of it.

REW 41 | Tax-Deferred Retirement

Tax-Deferred Retirement: It’s an old-fashioned myth that retirees in a lower bracket are moderately successful in their investments or savings.

 

You had six figures, let’s say we owe $100,000 taxes. Give us a quick high-level example of how that would look.

First of all, we had a great accountant to bring that money down to as low as possible, but profits are profits and you’ve got to report them. We still had a major tax bill at the end of the year. What we decided to do was say, “We’re going to put that into a savings vehicle that we can earn some interest on.” The problem with most savings vehicles is that when you withdraw money out, it stops growing. That seems obvious. If I put money into a savings account or a CD, and then I withdraw that money out, how much interest am I now earning on that cash? Nothing. I can only earn interest slowly as I pack money up for the next tax year. I’m always faced with falling back down the staircase down to zero networth and having to build that up again, only to spend it again. It was a never-ending cycle.

What we decided to do was put it into an asset that allowed it to continue to grow, even when we access the cash to pay our tax bill. Using it as a line of credit to ourselves, essentially, we used a cash value life insurance policy designed the bank on yourself way, for the readers who want to learn more about that. We’ll be diving deep into how that works, showing real numbers on the webinar, but we use that to use as a cash source to pay our tax bill. We’ll continue to do so on every tax bill we have. It will add millions of dollars to our networth over our lifetime just by how we’re paying for our taxes. Now everyone’s numbers are going to be different, but those are our figures. You could use that same person, that 35-year-old lady who called me up. We had a Zoom call. She was floored when we saw what we could do with a similar strategy on even a nominal amount of tax every year.

This strategy is so much cooler than what Mark has been able to talk about because you get paid interest on that. You don’t have to pay back that money. There are different ways to do this so that you can maximize the wealth that you’re building while you pay your taxes each year. I’m amazed.

Let’s expand it to real estate. You can do the same with your real estate. You can do the same with your own major purchases like vehicles. Any major purchase, including taxes, this fits as long as you’ve sat down with a competent professional to look at it first. You don’t want to just jump into this half-blind, but you can take back control of that money. It’s a tax-free income stream under current law alongside Roth IRAs and other accounts. It’s a phenomenal change in the mindset of how we make our major purchases.

I’m excited about the webinar. Let’s give them a brief and rundown on what that’s going to look like. First of all, the webinar is going to be on January 21st, 2021 which is a Thursday. We’re going to be doing it from 1:00 to 2:30 Pacific time. To get signed up for that webinar, you go to BlissfulInvestor.com/Mark. Tell us a little bit about what we’re going to be covering in that.

By building wealth off your taxes every year, you'd be set for life without taking a bunch of unnecessary risks. Click To Tweet

We’re going to have some specific ways in which you can lower your tax bill without building up a taxable time bomb in the future. We’re going to be talking about ways on how you can specify as a business owner or someone who’s got a day job, find some incredible tax gaps in the current code to take advantage of for yourself, paying what’s due of course, but never leaving the tax man a tip. That’s my mantra. Also, finding some specific ways you can use the strategy we described to build real wealth on your tax bill and all your other major purchases too. We’ll even be showing some real case studies and examples, and then a chance to see how we can even pull out of this asset a tax-free income stream that will last as long as you do.

I love that. Ladies, the reason that I asked Mark to do this webinar specifically was that two of you called me or emailed me and let me know that you did join up with Mark or Amanda Neely in the past. The whole infinite investing idea is real and you’re discovering how to use it and you love it. I have some other mentors of mine that are also working with Mark like Chris Prefontaine, who you guys also know. There are some people that I trust are working with Mark on this strategy. There are some of you ladies that have given me feedback that this is amazing and you love it.

I wanted to highlight it for the rest of you to see how you might be able to utilize it for yourself. That’s why we’re doing this webinar. I think it’s going to be valuable. Go sign up. It’s going to be at BlissfulInvestor.com/Mark. If you sign up and you can’t make it, he will send a replay out for you ladies. The other thing is if you feel like you would rather speak to Mark and not go to the webinar, you’re already sold, he’s going to give you his calendar link. How can they do that?

If you go to LakeGrowth.com/schedule and then mention Moneeka in the calendar link when you fill out the appointment schedule and you’re setting your time. It’s a fifteen-minute phone call or Zoom call. We would be happy to answer your questions. If you can’t wait for the webinar and want to get right to the answers, I would be happy to schedule that with you right away, but make sure to mention Moneeka in the appointment that you sent. I would be happy to send you a free copy of the chapter that Moneeka and I co-authored together and the awesome book, Real Estate Investing for Women, which was so fun to write. Thank you Moneeka again for the opportunity.

For the people who want to be on that calendar before the webinar, I’d be happy to chat with you guys. I don’t know if this is too much to say, Moneeka, but it may even be that those that attend the webinar get that chapter as well. I’ll leave that up to you to decide, but I want to get this information out to people. I think it will be so much fun. I can’t wait to be there with your readers and your audience again. You’ve got the greatest people in the world.

REW 41 | Tax-Deferred Retirement

Tax-Deferred Retirement: If your accountant hasn’t already brought up things like bonus depreciation and cost segregation, be concerned that they didn’t bring it up to you first.

 

Thank you. I think so too. I love my ladies. We’ll get some time to go through it. We go high level. It’s pretty quick because not everybody’s interested. For those of you who are interested, we’ll get some good time to deep dive. I’ve scheduled for 90 minutes so we have that commitment on our calendar. We can go through the webinar, ask questions and that sort of thing. Ladies, come join Mark and me on January 21st, 2021 which is a Thursday from 1:00 to 2:30 PM Pacific Time and go to BlissfulInvestor.com/Mark. Mark, this has been amazing. Thank you so much for sharing this time with us again.

You’re such a giving person, Moneeka, thank you for what you give to the world, and keep up the great work. We appreciate you.

Thank you. Ladies, thank you for joining Mark and I for this portion of the show. We look forward to seeing you next time. Until then, always remember, goals without action are just dreams. Get out there, take action, and create the life your heart deeply desires. I see you soon.

 

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To listen to the EXTRA portion of this show go to RealEstateInvestingForWomenExtra.com

To see this program in the video:

Search on Roku for Real Estate Investing 4 Women or go to this link: https://blissfulinvestor.com/biroku

On YouTube go to Real Estate Investing for Women

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